“Accountability is still important, but it’s not that you’re dictating how they’ll do the work. This is starting to create that environment where you’re empowering people to actually help your business grow.”
New York Times best-selling author of The Lean Entrepreneur and CEO of Moves the Needle, Brant Cooper is also a sought-after keynote speaker who travels the world to share his vision to entrepreneurs and corporate executives on how to redefine modern organizations, combine agile-human centred design and lean methodologies, and leadership development to spark entrepreneurial action and economic freedom.
“You have to learn what the proper way to empower your people to actually solve these problems, and it is hard. It’s not you just stepping out of the way. You actually have to teach the behaviour of an empowered person or empowered team. You have to figure out the right metrics to track their progress, but when it’s successful, you’ve got a business that’s functioning.”
Join Brant Cooper as he delves into the importance of business resilience and lean startup in running a successful and highly functioning organization in the 21st century and beyond.
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/brantcooper
Website: https://brantcooper.com/
Facebook: https://facebook.com/brantcooperofficial/
Twitter: https://twitter.com/brantcooper
John: Thank you for listening to the Business Sphere, don’t forget to subscribe and share this episode. My guest today is New York Times best-selling author of the Lean Entrepreneur and Ceo of Move The Needle Brent Cooper. Thanks for being on the show today
Brent: Thanks for having me, Happy to be here.
John: So I’m excited because I love outwest. I know you’re in San Diego area, and the weather must be beautiful, here in Canada is a little bit colder, cooler but the first question I would love to ask you is, for all the listeners that don’t know who you are, if you don’t mind share with them. What you’re known for? What’s your expertise? And How you came about to becoming that expert?
Brent: Yeah sure. So yeah boy kind of looking back I would say that you know I never really thought of myself as an entrepreneur. You know when I came out of college and whatnot there wasn’t I didn’t know about entrepreneurship really but I was always sort of an explorer, a little bit of a maverick in whatever jobs I had. My bosses, My managers would kind of toss me around like a hot potato because they didn’t want to be my manager and it was usually because I wanted to do things my own way rather than how I was told so I sort of suffered, I sort of suffered in business for a while. And then it wasn’t until like the late 90s or mid-90s. And I’ve joined my first startup out in the silicon valley so that’s really kind of the mid-90s was when tech was really starting to warm up, you know you had Netscape starting, kind of started at least in my mind in the bay area and that’s where I was living at the time and so I joined my first startup and I that’s where I got my first taste – of wait a second there’s actually businesses out here that reward that exploration and sort of that maverick behavior. They wanted to hire people that were willing to go out and figure out how to drive impact on a daily basis so it wasn’t about a bunch of managers managing people’s tasks.
It’s about like, hey you know here’s your responsibilities-here’s your scope now go figure out how you can improve the business. And so you’re sort of like an entrepreneur inside of a startup company because you’re managing yourself but it’s all in service to driving impact. It’s not you know it’s not hippie capitalism, it’s not just lazing about it’s actually working hard and being creative and exercising your intelligence and so it’s a rewarding way to work. So I worked in – you know a variety of startups. Tried a couple of my own efforts that you know pretty much failed and then when that come crashed there was – there were a number of people that were writing about well why are we you know trying to create startups to make them look like big businesses. when big businesses struggle themselves to find new growth and to innovate quote-unquote innovate into you know to try to come up with new products and so I was sort of part of this emerging movement around using learning iterative learning principles to build your business right so admitting when you don’t know something or exposing assumptions you have about a business and then testing them before investing time money resources into working on something just because we fervently believed it. Right?
And so again it kind of requires a little bit of self-awareness and I think a lot of entrepreneurs are willing to test rather than just do and so that’s what that movement was all about. And I ended up writing the new york times bestseller that you mentioned lean entrepreneur and I built a business around teaching larger enterprises. How to behave in this more entrepreneurial way and of course the big business side of it is there’s a struggle most of them don’t get it there’s just layers and layers of command and control style bureaucracy that really shuts all that stuff down but I think that they do have to figure it out or they’ll fail and I just in november of last year released another book disruption proof and that really is sort of making this argument that the digital world is completely different than you know the assembly line driven industrial world and the way we manage and structure work is changing it’s going to change and so I think it’s relevant to both startups and small businesses to think about how do you how would you organize and structure your work in a digital environment versus what we were all taught in MBA school or what we all have learned by looking at other companies because I think it’s completely different.
John: And that’s
Brant: So that’s what got me here is and that’s really what I go out and talk about and I’m – I don’t know, I don’t have – like the answer. I think it’s – I’m still sort of in that learning exploring mode about what it – what do businesses in the 21st century look like.
John: And That’s ultimately what’s all about right? Continuous learning – growing and still trying to figure out because no one has the answer. No business can know everything. And there’s always going to be disruption. There’s always going to be change, there’s going to be behavior shifts. Right? On a global scale as well as a local scale. So I just have a couple of things that I wanted to ask you throughout this journey. And I know you mentioned in 90s. You worked in a lot of startups and this is prior to the big internet boom. Right? Technology was probably – you know computers that were pentium one two they didn’t have internet dial up was pretty much it. Netscape was the first browser for all the listeners that don’t know what nescape before chrome, before firefox, before any of these bigger browsers. But what was it like in silicon because my brother actually worked at research in motion back in the 90s and before apple came out. There was a thing called blackberry right? So it was interesting to see the north towels because I’m north of the border here in Canada and there were only a couple big players heavy hitters. So I kind of saw it but how was it in San Diego like in silicon valley in your world.
Brant: Yeah – I mean it was exciting, it was high energy and it in – and it wasn’t just. It was the work environment, right? So that was part of it. It’s just completely different like it was mind-blowingly different from anything. I had experienced up at that time we were in redwood city. I was at a company called tumbleweed communications that ended up, you know going public while I was there but early on we were in an old building in downtown redwood city which was, you know it wasn’t like now it’s like this burgeoning like super nice little city there and it was a little bit, you know there were some sketchy parts and it just was not there wasn’t a ton of money in there it wasn’t Palo alto or mountain view which are kind of the iconic cities that people think about in silicon valley. And redwood city was – you know sort of the lower rent version of it but we were in an old architect.
Architect Building a office that was built by architects that was for an architecture firm. And the ceiling would go back like you could when it was sunny out and you could like I don’t know smell the restaurants and everything and it was a group of I don’t know 25, 30 of us in there-packed in there and it was just the energy was just insane everybody was like cranking on stuff and people enjoyed coming into work. And everybody had problems to solve and you were responsible for solving those problems. So, that was very representative of that. You know that ethos, that silicon valley tech startup ethos and it was starting to pervade other parts of society. So I was there in 97 so things were really kind of moving then there were tons of startups but you could go into downtown san Francisco.
And the cafes were filled with tech entrepreneurs and so maybe to some people that wouldn’t be exciting but when you it’s sort of like being around a community of artists in the sense that people are being creative they’re trying to solve problems they’re trying to get things to move and so that creates a certain amount of energy and you know you hear other people talking about it you’re just you know everybody’s willing to have conversations and you’re bumping into people. And there’s events going on that are bringing like-minded people and so you’re you know you’re talking about this stuff and drinking beers and seeing if you can help somebody else and it was just a very cooperative high-energy you know rising tide lifts all boats type of atmosphere and so it was a lot of fun I love it.
John : And that’s amazing to hear because community like you mentioned is hard to come by but that’s what brings everyone together from your local church group – to sporting events – to activities and hobbies workplace and even online digital now there’s a lot of communities just to give you a background so I run a SEO agency and we have SEO communities all over the place. And now that I’m getting into fitness, I started joining communities learning about marathon running or spartans or tough mudders and that’s what you want right people that are like-minded same stages of their life at this given time. And moment and you want to resonate with them and have similar goals right like people that are intentional are ready to commit, right? and hang out and talk that same language and that’s what attack was about right.
Brant: yeah well I mean I think you’ve nailed it there. I like it’s a great lesson for your listeners is that you know people get themselves all wrapped up around what a market segment is and they start talking about demographics and what people look like and all of that those things but a community actually represents an ideal market segment right and it’s a you know people who share the same need. And speak the same language and when I say speak the same language I really mean that they would refer to each other for those type of community, resources, or aspects right? So demographics might be involved but they don’t have to be right. The example I used to give all the time was a company in san francisco that made, they were called beta brands and so their ethos was right in their name like they were creating new pieces of clothing. But it was called beta so it was always in test mode. And they made these bike to work pants and so bike to work pants were for anybody that biked to work. It didn’t really matter what your income level is or what your ethnicity was or your age or anything it was this shared need that actually brought created a community and if you as an entrepreneur if you – even if you don’t know what product to sell if you could create a community first. You’ll probably eventually figure out some way that you can provide that community value and they’ll pay you for the value and that’s really what it’s about.
John: That’s amazing and just for all the listeners that have been listening to all the great podcasts and guests. I mean there’s so much value in not just learning the entire life stages that people go through to become an author, become an expert. It doesn’t happen overnight. And I’m sure you mentioned this, there were a lot of failures along the way the startups that you were a part of that went public, or the ones that they even get passed, or maybe just got VC funded. They got some you know some funding – somehow private equity or whatnot but they didn’t even make it past x amount of years, or they ran out of cash and that’s another struggle and a lot of people are watching all these shows you know. Shark tank, killer dragons – everyone’s like I want to be an entrepreneur. Well, there’s only a small percentage that actually make it past. One year – five years to then make it public right? If you don’t mind sharing some of these stories from your point of view because you lived it you’ve seen it and you were a part of it.
Brant: Well so, I think now that I look back on it my number one piece of advice is don’t take money if you don’t need it . I mean I think that the – like there has to be this alignment between what your vision is for your business. And then how you’re going to fund that business. And so if you – if what you want to do is create a small business or what’s often called a lifestyle business I think that’s amazing, I think it’s awesome, I think it’s hard, and I think people should be satisfied. That satisfied with that if that’s really what they want. If you really want to be a tech unicorn, you know that’s like the odds are stacked against you. It’s going to be very difficult there’s way more likely it’s not going to happen. Not because you’re a bad entrepreneur but just because so many things have to go correctly for you to get to that stage. But if you want to go for it. Go for it.
That’s totally fine but the thing is that you have to understand that the moment you take in those types of investors they’re your boss you’re no longer really your own boss. You’re giving up parts of your company and they actually might be able to vote to kick you out. you know so I mean and those might be the right choices so I’m not anti that stuff either I just think that people kind of go and play the startup game when what they really should be doing is trying to grow maybe from you know 10 employees to 15. And then that’s fine. Right? that generates enough revenue and generates a lifestyle that you enjoy and you love what you do. I think that’s difficult, I think it’s hard and I think we should reward that. And so I don’t think like lifestyle business is a disparaging comment and I think that we should encourage it. That there’s an economic freedom that comes from that that is just – is beyond belief it’s just so powerful and so I’m really kind of more committed to helping people even do side hustles and those things.
In order to achieve some amount of economic freedom because there’s nothing more powerful in my life than being able to walk away from a job or a bad manager there literally is nothing more powerful than that. The moment you have that sort of economic freedom you are in control of what you want to do every day of your life and I am a very privileged person that I was able to grow up the way I did and have that opportunity I realized that. But it also today’s day and age it doesn’t cost that much to start a business there’s a lot of people that have written a lot of stuff that have – that can help you start I’ve launched now startupbluebook.com that can help. And so I just think that it’s a great opportunity to go out and test an idea and see if you can generate some revenue. John your services are obviously super relevant to that too which is awesome and so there’s just so much help out there so much great content. That I really think you know now is a great time to give it a shot.
John: Yeah brant I think you nailed it because people are perceiving a lot when they’re watching these shows watching social media and people are like “oh I want to be like jeff bezos” or “I want to be like a mark Zuckerberg”, or I want to be ex like whoever that’s one in a billion right? the odds are so against you. You can get struck by lightning ten thousand times before you become a successful billionaire right? But lifestyle businesses like you mentioned and that’s what I started like the reason I’m in doing what I do is I’m serving a community of SMB’s and I love the fact that they are localized.
They support their community, understanding their customers but really adding value to whatever they bring joy right? Fulfill their lifestyle with the choices that they’re able to make right? Support the local economy hire people that are local and really just having fun so that they can still spend time with family and friends and they’re in control they own it. Which means like you mentioned when you’re giving up that control as a starter private equity or whatnot. There’s a lot of ownership that’s no longer yours. You’re now run by the board of directors, or shareholders, or people that are controlling the money because they’re funding you just like when you’re going for a loan at a bank right? They’re funding it so the bank could come in and take it back. Right?
So when I bootstrapped my agency and it was all about making sure I’m serving my clients and I only scaled when I had the money to scale right. And these are things that I’ve learned over the years but a lot of business owners want to get from point a to point you know z right after in a couple months but in reality you got to put in the time, and effort, and work ethics. And a lot of mistakes, a lot of trial and errors and a lot of problems that you have to encompass right and that’s the reality of life. If it was so easy people would be married with kids living in mansions in the best parts of the world overnight right?
Brant: Yeah, I think that the other part of it is that you have to look at. You can even look at shark tanks and realize how much of a business that you actually already have to build. Like they’re not going to invest in your idea. You actually have to have you know show this month-over-month growth that you are kicking butt and then they’ll give money to you and take part of your ownership right? so back in the day. Back in silicon valley in the 90s you did have there was so much money that people were throwing at entrepreneurs with ideas but that doesn’t really happen anymore. You actually have to prove your business model so you might as well prove your business model with your own bootstrapping it because even if you then decide that you do want to take an investment in order to scale quicker the more of your business that you prove first the more of the company you get to keep. Right? so that’s actually a fundamental rule. The more you figure out your growth engine and you get growing, the more that you actually are able to do that before money the more of the company you get to keep if you end up taking money.
John: Exactly and timing is a lot of it right? like people perceive they want to be millionaires instantly right? or they want that 10-minute, intel 10 mil exit, right? well in order to get there you got to at least have recurring revenue you got to hit Ebitda at a certain ratio. You got to understand what it takes and talk to people that have already exited and how much time they put ? and what systems processes? What has been developed Right? it just doesn’t happen overnight.
Brant: No it’s not, it’s hard work, it’s hard and there’s a lot stacked against you. The other thing that I’ll say too is that there’s a lot of interesting alternative funding mechanisms that are out there now.
John: Yes
Brant: And so even if you want to grow, you can look at you know revenue-based investments, and you can pay dividends, and you can pay interest and you can pay back. Things other than equity necessarily and so that’s really what people have to understand is that in the venture capital game. It’s all about growing the equity and they want then they need the exit in order to get the compounds on their equity. And so if you look at these alternative then you don’t have to sell the company in order for your investors to get money out of it and that takes a lot of the pressure off. So I that would be the other thing and again I don’t think the startup community talks about that very much because it’s such a venture driven game that it’s all about the equity as opposed to how can we make the entrepreneur achieve the vision that they have and again you know as you mentioned John you have to maintain some amount of control of the company in order to get the vision that you have realized.
John: And I know you mentioned this earlier, like lifestyle businesses. All it is is recurring revenue, a cash flow business that supports your lifestyle. And maybe that’s what your end game is already, so you don’t need to exit at x amount of multiples to get funding and ownership from others right? If you are running a solid business you know it inside out and then you can pass it on to the next generation or sell it when you’re willing to retire that can be your exit but you’re still working on your business, or working you know instead of in your business learn to work on the business, and work, on becoming more efficient increasing revenue you know the ROI or you know generates more profitability right, like there’s different way to do that.
Brant: yeah, they were one of the “startups” that I worked at and I called “startups” because they pretended that they wanted the venture money and they pretended that they wanted to exit and so this is an example of where the values were not aligned with the way they were operating the company and they hired a bunch of people including myself and incentivized them with options in the company and part ownership and all that kind of stuff but in the end that’s not what they wanted they were paying themselves super high salaries and as founders that’s what they get to do right and so that’s a you know a lifestyle business could be that you’re paying yourself a lot of money either through distributions or through salary or whatever you do it and so it can fund as lavish a lifestyle as you want depending on how much revenue you’re making or maybe you’re more modest and you’re just making enough to you know send your kids to college and take a you know a vacation to italy every year but the problem was that this company; the owners were incentivizing their people.
Brant: Assuming that there was going to be some sort of an event, an equity event. But they never were going to do it, and I don’t think that they even realized they were never going to do it i think over time they sort of realized it but by that time it was too late all of us that had put our heart and soul into growing the company which we successfully did we never got sort of the benefit and so that’s unfair and so that’s why the values thing becomes really important if you’re incentivizing your people because you’re going to have this big-equity event they’re going to share in that and then you don’t ever do it well. That’s not, you know, that’s not really that honest and so um I think that we’ve probably covered this topic enough but it’s just I think it’s one of those things where it’s important for people to understand what it is that they really want and then to operate their business that’s in concert with those values.
John : And you mentioned this earlier alignment right making sure the values are in line with all your employees your clients and and having that vision making sure that you’re honest with yourself and one of the things I always talk to my team about is that gut check can I sleep at night can I make sure that everyone’s happy content and doing the best they can and are we all in alignment with what our major goals and purpose is and if we are all working to achieve the same goals and doing the best we can then we’re doing the best job we can right like we’re happier wanting to go to battle together collectively and that’s the big thing like a lot of businesses and business owners need to figure it out there there’s a lot of information out there overload people are throwing so many success stories and marketing gimmicks and you know like statements and call to actions and trying to sway you because this shiny object syndrome is everywhere but in reality you’ve seen it I’ve seen a lot of it and for me it’s like just stick with your guts focus on why you got in business in the first place don’t deviate too much yeah you can pivot you can try different things out but in reality look at those people that really you look at and what admire right they might be not even super ultra successful they could just be living a good lifestyle.
Brant: That’s the way I would put it, I think that the CEO’s job, the founder’s job, is to be in exploration mode, but there’s a systemic way of doing it. And so it’s not just relying on your gut it’s the instincts are great but there’s a systemic way of doing it and it so it’s not just relying on your gut. It’s The instincts are great but it’s also testing whether it’s true or not and the way you hire like I see you’ve got like behind you e-myth right so this is sort of the classic way of scaling a company is you figure a bunch of stuff out and then you pass that on to somebody else who can do those things that you’ve already figured out and your job is to go and remove the next obstacle for your company right and so that’s back to exploration mode. And so you always have people that are doing what’s already been figured out but it’s not you as the founder because you need to be able to pass that on to somebody else, if you want to grow, if you enjoy the work you just want to do that? That’s fine. But if you want to grow a little bit and make some more money then you actually that’s how you scale is you pass on what you figured out to somebody else and you don’t hold them to the same standard that you would hold themselves right?
So they’re not going to be as good as you are. But it’s a threshold that they have to get beyond right where the customer is still happy, still satisfied and then that’s good enough and then you’re out there trying to explore. You’re trying to figure out well what’s the next obstacle to growth so I can get to where I want to be. And that’s where you practice – you know understanding your customers, or other stakeholders deeply, you do some empathy work, you figure out what your assumptions are about how you would fix that problem, and you run some experiments to figure it out and then you end up learning that you figured out. You pass it off to your team again and you go off and go try to tackle the next obstacle.
John: Yeah and there’s stages right in the business life cycle and the evolution as you. As the business owner ceo or whatever. You know position you want to play so a question I want to ask you I know you had all the startup experience as well. as now helping others. what do you find joy out of lile, What excites you today? because you’ve seen a lot over the years and you start still talk to a lot of people like how has things changed and what do you enjoy the most out of your day.
Brant: Yeah, I mean you know I think that my book is sort of just recently launched and so I’m still talking about that so I don’t know I guess I love seeing light bulbs go off and so I love stimulating conversations and challenging people’s – you know sort of long-term held beliefs to see if they can actually see things differently and I think that’s tough for us to do as human beings we want to do what we did yesterday because but what happens like I sort of joke right-you know people call insanity when you do the same thing over and over and expect different results but actually I don’t think – you know really what it is that we do the same thing over and over again and we expect the same results and so what happens when actually the results don’t come back? Like what happens if you covid hits and suddenly your market doesn’t exist anymore?
Now, what are you going to do? Right? So those are the challenges I think of the modern world. I think that the whims of customers and how inner messed we all are and the fact that we’re all running around with computers in our pockets and the power that the consumer has to make choices I actually think that you could do the same thing you did yesterday and it doesn’t work anymore so now what do you do? And so I think that really gets back to you have to be in this exploration mode you have to be able to learn and human beings are wired to be in learning mode that’s actually everything that we do is really about failing first and then learning how to do something and so we have to embrace that. And look at the world and go.
Well, where’s the uncertainty in my business? And how do I reduce that uncertainty? and So yeah I don’t know. I mean so what inspires me is getting people to see that and then them taking action. Every once in a while I’ll have people tell me that you know they’ve taken my advice and it changed their life. And so to me there’s nothing more rewarding than that. It’s the – my – the meaning of my life is creating value in other human beings creating value for somebody else. And so when you get that feedback that yes you know you’ve like really inspired me and you’ve changed me and I’ve gone out and done this and I was able to (you know) succeed in this. That’s like there’s nothing better than that. That’s what I live for.
John: And that’s where the impact starts happening. And what stage of your life did you start making that pivotal shift from that mindset of trying to help others evolve? And taking action, and earning success right becoming more successful in their lives.
Brant: What’s interesting is that you can look back in your life and you can maybe find a thread that’s always been there. And so when I think about it. When I got my first job. First sort of real job was in Washington DC after I graduated from college at UC Davis. And after a year I quit. Because I didn’t want a regular job and so I was going to go write a novel. And again I feel like it was all money that I earned but it still I have this privilege that I was able to do that. But even in that moment I remember telling my girlfriend at the time this is the 80s that I wanted to give everybody that sort of freedom. I wanted to give everybody the opportunity to walk away from a job they didn’t want. And my girlfriend who was wiser than me said. Like yeah that’s really not possible for most people and I go – I realize that but that’s sort of so that was the 80s so I mean. That isn’t that much different than what I just said that all of these decades later I think I’m just better at it now than I was then.
John : Well, it’s wisdom right? And it’s choice, and a lot of people are stuck with no choice, they have obligations, they have family needs, they have basic shelter and food, and they need to support the – just bare necessities to survive, right? So once you get past that hierarchy of needs to a point where you have choice abundance, you have access, you have ability to decide without any regret. You know that changes a lot of things in your life specially that stressor of financial? Right. When you’re able to surpass that financial burden mode. To then not worry so much about why my next paycheck is or when I’m gonna have to worry about what kind of food I’m gonna put on the table right like these things it’s hard to say but it’s the reality and as an entrepreneur business owner. Early years is survival mode because you don’t have that.
Brant: That’s what’s the beauty about all of these lean entrepreneur tactics and the digital age is that you can actually do all of that stuff while you have a full-time job.
John: Yes I totally agree.
Brant: Yeah.
John: And so.,
Brant: That’s where the magic is now is the time to – and this even really if you’re (you know) I was having a conversation with this other guy (like-minded guy) and he talks about (you know) the white space that’s in people’s lives and so the white space is sort of all of that time that isn’t spent doing tasks even though you’re getting your job done right. And if you sort of accumulate all of this white space you have all of this opportunity to actually try a side hustle without (you know) letting your boss know without ticking off your boss without them even being aware that you’ve got this side hustle going on. And to me, that’s like completely legit and people ought to be doing it if they want to see if they can kind of figure out whether there’s a way for them to do what their dream business is. And so there’s a way to do that test that now. Without risking all of those lifestyle things or all of those necessities that we that you were talking about.
John: Yeah and there’s so many different ways right? To bootstrap, to startup side hustle (you know) you can work under someone else, you can volunteer, you can just learn. Right? and see if it’s the right thing for you because you might decide and figure out that business ownership is too much for me at this stage of my life. I have too many other things going on. Like if you have a family, you got other obligations elderly parents, sick people like there’s so much going on in life. And then only (you know) when it’s the right time to take on this new adventure and journey.
Brant: Yep
John: So I know we talked a little bit about the newest book of disruption proof right? And you worked on it because of the pandemic I mean I look at disruption as it’s actually good if you’re running a business and you’re trying to figure out what is the worst-case scenario? What happens if? And you recession-proof it. Disruption proof it to a point where (you know) competitors come in and go your clients are stable or you go pick up new clients but during the pandemic. How many clients or how many businesses were recession-proof and if you were not equipped and ready for it. Where are you today? Are you survival mode? Are you not even in business because I’m super fortunate I’m so lucky to be in business. Hasn’t been disruptive at all during this recession or during this pandemic. And it’s been (you know) I look back and I’m like, wow I set it up at home nine years ago.
Everyone’s home base, I’ve been focusing on streamlining cost becoming more efficient getting better at customer service, learning about the processes and systems and utilizing all the software and tactics out there to get better always constantly improve looking at the stack of softwares and people efficiencies. But a lot of people aren’t doing that. So when I look back and I’m like I probably am different than a lot of businesses because a lot of business owners are okay with what happened last year, two years ago and they don’t want to change, they don’t want to try something different because they’re so comfortable with that revenue stream, profitability and they think that nothing can stop them because it lasts 5-10 years it’s been the same thing over and over.
Brant: Yeah, well, I mean, listen if they get to keep their same revenue streams then I don’t think they do have to change. I know, I think it’s the – I think that there was a lot of small business there’s tons of small businesses that went out of business of the pandemic and I. You can even look at those restaurants that successfully (you know) got pick curb side pickup and delivery and there’s those restaurants that didn’t and the latter didn’t survive. And the former did. So I mean that’s an example of just being (you know) in my new bed got. We call “rad” resilient aware of what’s going on around you, able to make changes based upon those changes right and so. But listen if people survived and they’re happy with it then I don’t think people should change for change’s sake I think that you’re an entrepreneur that is super familiar with the digital world. And so I think you’ve grown up probably in this environment where there’s kind of agility built into the way that you work and so I think that there’s a lto of old school people that suffer during the pandemic and believe me the pandemic isn’t the last. That’s not the last disruption and So I wanted people to think about disruption beyond.
You know tech disruption which is kind of a cliche it’s (you know) global supply chain issues, it’s mass resignations, it’s that you can’t hire people it’s a ransomware attacks, it’s pandemics it could be (you know) there’s all of these things that in the middle of the 20th century. The pandemic still would have been devastating but it isn’t so interconnected, right? It’s the interconnectivity of the world and how fast everything is moving the speed of information and the speed of disinformation now that makes things more complex. And so back in life I tell people like imagine you’re creating a microwave in the 50s you need to have the technology (you know), you have the technical expertise, and then you need this operational efficiency that you can create a microwave at a cost that the middle class is going to afford. There’s very little market risk people are going to buy our microwave because it’s like, oh my god this amazing new technology is going to save all this time and energy, and I love it, and I want it, they don’t care about the color, they don’t care about all the features, they just want the microwave oven and so the whole business is structured around operational efficiency in order to produce this microwave as cheaply as possible. But if you look at today? You could buy a microwave from a (you know) 10 different vendors, you have to have all of these options, you have to have all of these different colors.
The complexity of creating a piece of and they actually it’s not just microwaves. It’s right – it’s the consumers deciding how they’re going to spend their 250 on a whole host of different products right? So you’re even just trying to compete for attention for mind share and so it’s way more complex so we – you can’t structure a business based upon an assembly line. If that’s the new environment that you’re in. SO People have to just sort of think about what is the environment that they’re in how quickly can their customers change their mind. Or are they pretty locked in. If something actually happens what can disrupt my business things that are out of my control things? like the pandemic and suddenly my customer doesn’t have a budget anymore? where they’re making different financial decisions. And so the thing is that it’s just being aware of those things and then using this expiration mode. This creativity that you have to figure out. Hey, this is what we need to do, to protect the company against all of those fluctuations, or to have (you know) a diversity of ways that we can interact with the market. And so there’s case studies in the book of these very large companies that did the work for years before the pandemic that then allowed them to respond to the pandemic in these amazing ways.
John: oh that’s amazing and I mean for all the listeners, that haven’t already bought the book go and get the book it allows for you to be more nimble, be more aware about your current state of your business and how do you ensure that any disruption will not impact your revenue stream. Cash flow your profitability or even change right like there’s going to be a lot of things thrown at you (like) you mentioned supply chain. Great risk (you know) resignation like a lot of things factors that are outside of your control. But what you control – can control is better workplace, environment, incentivize or figure out how to train better, cultivate a better culture ingrain, different mindset where people can evolve, and enjoy. Actually have a good workplace right like they look forward to wanting to go to work to go to battle with you right? As the leader because when you do that properly then it’s fun. Right? you’re actually enjoying being a part of this bigger vision that you actually put together. And there’s actually a following right? Like.
Brant: Yeah it’s fun because they get to solve problems and it’s really kind of funny to me. I mean this organizational structure that we’ve evolved to now is we hire smart people and then expect them to do us what we tell them to do and we should really be hiring smart people and then giving them the authority to go solve problems.
John: Yeah so a lot of people don’t do that and it’s hard because you’re the owner, you’re the founder, and you want to be in control, So you have to let go and (you know) letting go is a great book I right? It’s amazing and for me it’s like i have all these books that really resonate right with how you – not just live your life but in business, in health, in different stages of your life. You need to really understand what works and what doesn’t for you and then make decisions based on what you perceive to be the best decision at that given moment. And it doesn’t mean you can’t try it later it’s just not now. Right? Because you might be strapped for cash at this time so you can’t hire so you go out and try to do it yourself and learn and there’s so many variables as a business owner. So I love that. So question what are the biggest issues? That businesses make so that it prepares them for that disruption-proof kind of business.
Brant: Yeah, I think that. Well so one it’s a constant dialogue with their customers right? So it’s and that their employees for that matter. So this is sort of the developing empathy part of it you have to understand not just like what empathy isn’t asking your customers what they want and doing what they’re saying. It’s understanding why they say, what they say, and what their aspirations are, and what their fears are, and what their needs are, and their desires so it’s them super deeply. The more you understand them. The more you’re able to respond to their needs in terms of in the context of when change happens or disruption happens the more you understand your customers the better you’re able to respond to that.
The second I would (you know) I think people should explore the concepts of agility, of agile and you know there’s a lot of it was originally developed for software development and you can go look at the agile manifesto at agilemanifesto.org. But the thing i want you to hone in on is this idea of forming teams to solve problems and then letting them organize. How they’re going to solve the problem? so you’re still holding the team accountable to a mission to solving this problem. So accountability is still important but it’s not that you’re dictating how they’ll do the work you’re not managing their tasks. And so this is starting to create that environment where you’re empowering people to actually help your business grow, or help your business survive, or disruption. If everything is up to you? And you have to make every decision? You’re reactive, you’re not strategic, you can’t get out in front of things.
So you have to learn what the proper way to empower your people to actually solve these problems and it is hard, it’s not obvious, it’s not you just stepping out of the way. you actually have to teach the behavior of what is an empowered person or empowered team look like. You have to figure out the right metrics to then track their progress. But when it’s successful you’ve got a business that’s functioning without you. Which is actually a goal it really is because that’s what frees you up for being a strategic person that goes and solves what the next problem is? or becomes aware of something that might be coming down the pipe that you actually have to respond to right? So that’s what makes you dynamic. And so I think that those two things really is getting the empathy part right. And then experiment with this agile forming teams to solve business challenges, where you are holding them accountable to the mission, you’re tracking the right metrics, you’re giving them the resources they need, but you’re allowing them to figure out how to solve the problem you’re not dictating the tasks.
And you can do that with some really low-hanging fruit to begin with right? you don’t have to (like) make it something that’s super risky just try to talk look at a business efficiency problem that you have. Maybe you have groups of people that are actually not functioning that well together as a team? Just try and find some business challenge, maybe it could be that you have an idea of opening up an adjacent market right there’s a community that’s sort of sitting off on the side that you’ve always thought would be ideal for your product or service well that could be a challenge let’s go see if we can figure out how to convert some of those. So you set up a challenge like that you give people the team, the mission of going and solving that challenge, and you start building this trust between you and the team where you’re managing them differently and they’re accomplishing their mission. And you’re like going wow I just had no idea my people really do have the ability to have this impact. And then that starts freeing up all sorts of possibilities for you to grow your business or make your business you know safer from whatever disruptions are coming at us.
John: That’s great advice brant I couldn’t say it even better my way. Because for me it’s more allowing your team to be creative, allow them to communicate amongst each other, understand how to delegate accordingly, support them at all-cause, and make sure that what you’re trying to do, does not get pushed down on them because you want them to be creative, you want them to figure it out. Yes, there’s goals, there’s KPIs, there’s metrics but that’s the month goal that’s the quarterly goal or your annual goal people need time no one’s going to be like you or else they would start the business. Right? you should be guiding the ship but when you’re now equipping your team to allow them to make their own mistakes figure things out it allows you the freedom to do things that you can always wanted to do right and.
Brant: The trick is that the metrics that you use are measuring progress towards outcomes.
John : Yes
Brant: So the KPIs are the end goal like you’re saying monthly, quarterly, even annual. And you know what we do now is we measure tasks over a calendar and say like okay, well we’re three months into the calendar so we should be one-quarter of our way to these KPIs. And that’s not a good way to measure progress. Progress is based upon whomever the stakeholder is of a particular endeavor are they starting to change their behavior that indicates that you’re going to get to these further on goals. So it’s a really tricky for people to figure out it’s not easy it’s one of these things I do with these large corporations and they just can’t get beyond (you know) the KPI notion of a metric as opposed to the progress metrics. And so it’s the lean entrepreneur book goes into that quite a bit and I touch on it a little bit and disruption proof as well but uh you know it does require some studying and some work to try to figure out what those progress metrics are.
John: And it’s hard when you’re in the business and you’re not working on the business on the outside looking and when you’re starting to look and you’re not in the grind and the energy, and the stress is not in the business all day long you can actually see perspective wise. how things operate from training mode to evolution of employees from three months to a year, to five years, to ten years, to really see them evolve, and when you see them. And they’re learning more they’re actually evolving as a better human as well. Like they’re now becoming managers true – managers right in your eyes like that’s the whole evolution of learning to be (you know) adaptive and being able to be agile and being able to support more people because it allows you to the freedom, to try different things, try different ventures write a book, go on podcasts.
Work on videos and do things that you’ve always wanted to do but until then you need to really know your business right? like you have to know it inside out, you got to be in the (you know) get dirty a little bit but you also mentioned a little bit about this the art of listening and asking questions and understanding like and i learned this in sales. Really understanding where what people want and where they’re at and from your clients your staff and make sure there’s alignment and we talked about that all the time make sure communication is smooth and there’s no gaps there. Where everyone understands where they need to be to ensure that the survival and everyone’s accountable right it’s so hard for a lot of businesses to even understand this because they’re so in they’re so knee-deep in it they’re working 14, 16, 18 hours a day how do they have time to even spend time with family? let alone work on the business.
Brant: Yeah well I mean I think that I don’t think anybody should be working 18 hours a day that’s insane but I think that my personal belief is people should use they can you started some of these agile principles like a kanban board. A personal kanban you can go to personal kanban.com I think these people that Invented that are great and it’s a way for you to organize the work that you’re doing. And you can create your own little sprints for yourself and so there’s a power in visualizing all of the things that you have to get done and then you can build in your personal life right?
So you can build in the things that make you a contented human being. And these are things that you could be working on – in any moment in time. It could be you have a swim lane, for writing a book and so you’re contributing to a book you know even if it’s just once a week (you know) that’s making progress it could be spending time with your family in a very specific way, it could be learning a new song on a guitar but you build those things into the things that you need to get done within a time period. And you can choose that post-it note that sticky note that’s got like guitar on it anytime that you want really. So you build those it’s not splitting up your day into work and your day into work and business. It’s that work and business are all part of the same flow work in business and home. It’s all the same flow and so you actually have to build all of the thing other things that make you a contended human being into the flow of the day as opposed to trying to carve up the day in my opinion that’s what works for me.
John: Yeah and thanks a lot brant this has been a lot of fun. So for all the listeners who want to learn a little bit more about you where can they go and check you out some if you are on social where can they also message you or dm you.
Brant: Yeah, I’m Brant Cooper on most social. I guess a couple that’s Brent Cooper Official. Brant Brentcooper.com is my email. Brentcooper.com is my website, there’s also startupbluebook.com, and movestheneedle.com but you know connect with me on Linkedin. If you’re on LinkedIn or any other social media or just (you know) feel free to reach out I respond to all emails so (you know) brandtobrandcooper.com will work for you and yeah. If there’s any way that I can help within reason I’m happy to do so.
John: Amazing well I really want to thank you ultra grateful for the opportunity to speak with you and you’re giving a lot of wisdom someone that has already gone through a lot over those years and now at a stage where you want to make an impact where you want to support others to fulfill their dreams. So I really want to thank you Brant and have a great rest of your day.
Brant: Yeah, thank you John it was a fun conversation thanks so much.
John : Thanks
