“It doesn’t matter how big the company is. At the end of the day, it’s still a person deciding on what they think is the best… based on emotions and then backing it up with logic.”
John Livesay is known as the Pitch Whisperer. He is a keynote speaker, marketing specialist, and the author of books including “Better Selling Through Storytelling” and “The Sale is in the Tale”, which is targeted towards business owners who feel they might be “drowning in a sea of sameness”.
John has a passion for what makes people get inspired to do anything. He majored in advertising, had a 15-year career in sales, and worked in an ad agency creating commercials (where he honed his storytelling skills). It is his personal mission to help as many people as possible.
“It’s really our soft skills, listening, empathy, storytelling, that make us strong.”
John talks about the power of storytelling in business and how you can incorporate storytelling into your business strategy development — no matter which selling styles you use. Join him as he talks about his journey to adapting to digital marketing trends, using creativity to come up with solutions that fit, and the importance of empathy.
Find more about John here:
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/John-Livesay-350212128437220/
Twitter: https://twitter.com/John_Livesay
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jlivesay/
John: Thank you for listening to the business Sphere. Don’t forget to share this episode and subscribe. Joining me today is a pitch whisper John Livesey. He is the author of better selling through storytelling, and a keynote speaker. I know that he’s also working on a new book that’s being launched in 2022. John helps his clients win more business with storytelling. So thanks for being on the show today, John.
Livesay: Well, thanks for having me. I’m looking forward to our conversation.
John: Amazing. So the first question I’m gonna ask is, share with the listeners that don’t know who you are a little bit about who you are, and how you became who you are today?
Livesay: Sure. Well, I grew up in the suburbs of Chicago, and had a passion for what makes people get inspired to do anything, but allows them to be persuasive. So actually majored in advertising. And I was really interested in what ads stick and which ones don’t, and how you know, you’ve seen jingles or you’ve shared with other people. And then I moved to San Francisco and was selling multimillion dollar mainframe computers against IBM back in the day. And I realized that there’s a lot of psychological reasons as to what makes someone decide to buy it’s not logic. In other words, we might have a product that’s less expensive, and maybe even more reliable than what IBM had. But IBM would say, if you buy something else, and it breaks, we’re going to point the finger at the other vendor, and you could get fired for bringing in something else besides IBM. So there was fear, uncertainty and doubt and all these emotions going into the decision. And that was a big eye opener for me, that I had to start looking at what’s the emotion behind the decision, and then got transferred down to Southern California and ended up working for an ad agency creating commercials for movies coming out on home video back when blockbuster was big. And we could reposition a movie that maybe hadn’t done well, theatrically, and get people to go rent it or even buy it. And that’s really where I honed my storytelling skills.
Of what out of this two and a half hour movie, what scenes do we want to be showing to get people to, you know, change their mind about it. And then I had a 15 year sales career at Conde Nast selling advertising for brands like W and GQ and wired in Vanity Fair. And that really showed me that whoever told the best story got the sale like Lexus would say to the reps, you know, we looked at, you know, 50 magazines, we’ve narrowed it down to 10, we’re gonna pick three, and each get to come in and pitch back to back. And don’t tell us about numbers. We’ve already done that analysis and half the reps heard like a deer in headlights,what I can’t talk about circulation or the income of the readers. So that really, again, was all about whoever told the best story would get the sale. And then I’ve been involved now speaking to sales teams of tech companies and healthcare companies, on how to win those pitches when you’re in the final two or three against competition. And it really does come down to stories making memorable, they make you magnetic. And more importantly, you don’t feel pushy when you tell a story. So that’s what I’ve been doing. And that’s how I got here, I can tell another story of how I got called the pitch whisper but that that’s enough to get you going.
John: That’s amazing. John, I myself was selling advertising for 10 years in traditional advertising. Yeah. I can resonate. I understood the challenges. And really the intent focus of psychological business owners, right. So you were dealing with ad agencies or larger, you know, brands, and they probably had teams and layers that you were pitching. In that sense. It might have been different, but psychologically, why did they decide to choose you is very similar.
Livesay: Yes. So and some of the companies as I called them, we’re family owned jewelry businesses. So as you know, the father started it and the son was in charge of deciding where he wanted to advertise, or where she wanted to advertise. So sometimes the companies weren’t big companies like Lexus and Nike, they were small. They had a budget to advertise. But, you know, it doesn’t matter how big the company is, at the end of the day, it’s still a person deciding what they think is the best decision based on emotions and then backing it up with logic.
John: Totally, that’s amazing of a journey that you’ve gone through. So I’m gonna actually ask you a couple questions regarding the Conde Nast? Yes. Opportunity. I know you spent majority of your working life there. Yes, you probably also transition from traditional to then digital. And afterwards, right, so what actually happened there? Because, you know, because I came from traditional advertising moving to this new age of SEO that now I own an agency, and it’s more about like, the mindset shift of your users. And if you don’t pivot, and you don’t change, you’re gonna get eaten alive. So what happened in your journey?
Livesay: Well, back in 2008, when the mortgage crisis hit, it really impacted luxury advertising. People just didn’t want to be spending money like that. And so then I got a call from the publisher. And she said, You know, I’m so sorry. But you know, we’re laying off all the people that are outside of the New York office, and I was in LA at the time, and 30% of the staff here. And, you know, John, something kicked in to me, I think it goes all the way back to when I was a lifeguard, that lifeguard training of not panicking and staying calm, that even though I was devastated, and felt like it was a kick to the gut, I still had the wherewithal to say, well, don’t you need a status report to know where these ads should be running? And what issue and what page shows? Well, that’d be great. But everyone else is so mad. They’re just storming off. And I said, I’m not going to do that. I’ve known these people for so many years, I’ve seen them get married and have kids. Little did I know that that one decision to leave on a high note and give a status report would in fact, benefit me.You know, I realized that what happened to me with prints sort of going out of style was a lot like what happened to movie stars in the silent era. Some of them made it to talkies, and some didn’t. And I looked at that, and I thought, Hmm, what is the difference? Is it talent? No, it’s the willingness to embrace new technology. In this case, they had to learn how to speak and sound good. In this case, it was you got to learn how to sell digital, which is a whole nother language and mindset and everything else.
So I eventually got a job. I’m selling digital ads, launching the Daily Beast, which Barry Diller owned and Tina Brown was the editor at the time. And then two years after that Conde Nast called me and said, we’d like you to come back, we now have a new editor or a new website. And, and I thought, well, if I come back, I’m not coming back with any fear. Because it always lived in fear of not making my quota or the business going out of it, you know, the magazine going out of business. And that’s what allowed me to come up with some really creative ideas. Because when you don’t have fear, then your creativity can soar. And I came up with an idea where we did a joint venture with guest jeans, and I’m appointing salesperson of the year, two years after I’d been laid off for the whole company, not just my brand, which is about 400 salespeople around the world. And John is I’m standing there getting this award, I have this moment where I said, Wait a minute, I’m the same person, whether I’m being laid off or winning this award. And so that really has helped me with my own personal mission to help as many people as possible. Get off the self esteem rollercoaster, we only feel good if your numbers are up and bad if they’re down or if something good or bad is happening to you that literally our identity is bigger than any one thing that’s occurring.
John: And that’s a great story. Thanks a lot, John, for sharing that. Sure. And I love the fact that you were a sales rep like myself, where that whole goal mindset of weekly targets daily phone calls, reach out, objection handling, and then that quota, monthly quarters, quarterly, yearly annual. And it’s very focused on delivering the results for the company commission or right buy into the load. It was very hard at that time. But then looking back of what you’ve learned, and even myself being now a digital agency owner versus a sales rep, all those barriers, those grit, those daily grind habits that you had to endure to get to where you are right, it’s hard to see it when you’re actually in it. Sure. Now looking back, what really stood out for you because you put in the time, and then you actually finally achieved that great success. What did you do different or not so different? Or was it really just focus on what you had to do, which was delivered the best results, which is what the clients who are looking for providing better customer service than everyone else? And also, maybe it’s the honesty right, like being yourself authentic?
Livesay: Yes. Well, all of that contributes to it. You know, the biggest thing I think I noticed was we all had to do projections. And this happens in every industry, right? You know, what percentage of people are 90%? What are 50? What are 20, and then you do all the math and come up with a number of what you think you’re going to sell. And then I had this epiphany. And I thought, nobody thinks of themselves as a percentage. So I created my own intellectual property of how to go from invisible to irresistible. And there’s different rungs on the ladder, and we put our empathy hat on and start thinking of, what are they? Are we invisible to people that we want to have work with us? Or they’ve never heard of us? Or our company? Or are we sort of in the middle of the interesting rung where they say, I’m interested, and then it’s crickets after you send them something, and you don’t know why I call that being stuck at the friendzone at work. You know, you’re like, Oh, I thought they’re gonna buy and they didn’t. And then we get up to, you know, when we have clients that think we’re irresistible, they love us, they give us testimonials and referrals. So figuring out where you are on that ladder, is really crucial to how you interact with them. Because most people don’t ask somebody on a first coffee date to marry them. And yet, so many of us in the digital world say, Oh, would you like to connect with me on LinkedIn? And by this, you know, there’s, you need to realize where you are. And the good news is that storytelling is what gets you out of the friendzone. At work.
John: Yeah, and I think this goes very well with advertising sales, because it’s all about probing and then building connections, right? Yes, and really listening on where they’re at in that journey. Because, as you know, someone can say all they want, but until they commit, it doesn’t really mean much. Right? Right. And it’s very similar, like as a business owner, and those ad agencies that you work with your bosses, your managers, directors, VPS, all they care about is deliverables. And you had the hardest job, which was frontline processing, building Hopper, building a funnel, and then closing the deal, and then the relationship piece afterwards. So you’re going through all these different stages of behaviors and psychologically dealing with these customers, how did you overcome those barriers to become the leading rep, and then now at, you know, overcoming it to doing what you’re doing today?
Livesay: Well, I would again, it’s all about showing empathy, I would say to an ad agency, you know, they’re under a lot of stress they have to deliver otherwise, the client could change agencies, and they could have layoffs. So I would say to them, my job is to make you look good to your client. Oh, now instead of me being on one side of the table, I’m on the same side of the table with them, figuring out what can we do to make you look like a hero, to your boss, to your boss, and to the client. And once they had that awareness that I was thinking about them, and not just myself, then they were much more open to collaborative conversations, which I really think is the key to opening up ideas of what if we did this? And what if we did that. And I think it’s really our soft skills, listening, empathy, storytelling, that make us strong. And most of us think, well, if I’m an architect, or a lawyer, or financial adviser, whatever it is, I’m just going to talk about all the, you know, credentials I have and how many years I’ve been in business, and you know, the facts and figures and numbers. And at the end of the day, it’s really the soft skills that make your presentation, pitch, whatever you want to call it, stand out, because you if you fast forward and realize they’re gonna hear multiple people pitch. And then they’re gonna have the meeting after the meeting.
And they’re going to sit around and go, Well, we heard ten pitches, five pitches, three pitches, whatever it was, what do you guys think? Well, they all sound the same, I guess we should just go with the cheapest. But if you’re the one that’s told a story, or painted a picture of what’s possible, and how it would be different than just solving the math part of the problem, but that there’s an emotional hook. Going back to Lexus, again, you know, their challenge was competing against BMW. You know, people would buy BMW emotionally and buy Alexis for logic, and they wanted to get out of that mindset. We got to make this seem fun, and new. And so they were looking to co brand with magazines. So Sports Illustrated, came up with a great idea where they created a race track superimposed over the swimsuit model cover of the year. So you were basically racing over the curves of the swimsuit model on their cover. It was unique to that brand. And so that’s a wow factor. Right? You go Oh, that’s cool. That’s a Emotional, it’s fun. And so we’re taking something that doesn’t have a brand association of being fun to drive and making it fun. So those kinds of examples, make you use your creativity to come up with solutions that fit.
John: And that’s a great way to explaining things. Because in the first point, you mentioned actually was understanding who you’re pitching and what’s in it for them, right, realizing what’s their metrics and KPIs. What, what do they care about. And usually, if you’re dealing with, you know, other reps, account managers, sales reps, or directors, they’re looking for, for them to stay on staff, right, keeping their job, and reporting is key and critical and impression, all that stuff. But really understanding there’s alignment. So when I deal with a lot of small, medium sized business owners, what do they ultimately care about? Revenue, top line, profitability, sales, all that stuff. So you got to speak the same language and connect on an emotional level, as well as, you know, having the same sort of interests, right, connecting on multiple layers, not just on this product and service layer, but what else is it that’s gonna make you memorable? Yes, it’s gonna relate to them?
Livesay: Well, I think the other thing people forget is they you’re always selling yourself first. Most people just jump right into the product or service. And people buy from people that they trust and like, and no, and most people believe it’s the reverse order, no, like trust. So they go, Oh, you got to get to know me and my company push out all this information. Let me send you one more piece of information. Now, do you know enough to buy? And it really starts at the gut level? Do I trust you? You know, that handshake was to show you didn’t have a weapon in your hand. And then it goes to the heart of like, Do I like you do show empathy do get my, you know, when some people say, like, you get us, then you know, you’re probably going to get the sale. And then the unspoken question from the people’s head, John, is, will this work for me? They might trust in like you, but if they don’t think it’s gonna work for them, they’re not gonna do it. And so how do you get people to answer that? Well, again, storytelling, when you tell a story that people see themselves in, then they go, Oh, that you describe someone who’s got the same problems I do in your story. So it worked for them. So while you’re already identified with that person in your story, that probably means it’s going to work for me too. So you need multiple stories, ready to go depending on who you’re talking to.
John: Exactly. And I love you mentioning that, like the avatars personalities, and it has to hit them at the same stages that resonate to then move the needle. And you mentioned all about gut as well. And I love talking about that. Because if you don’t feel good inside, and you lose sleep over the new connection relationship, or the new, you know, journey that you’re going to be on, why would someone want to venture into it and step into in the first place. So you got to make them feel like there’s transformation that’s going to occur, they can picture themselves from here to there. And then throughout that relationship, you got to build that momentum as well. So I always say under promise over deliver, there’s always things that you can do as a sales rep. Now that I’m an owner, it’s a little bit different, because I’m trying to teach my team to have all these skill sets. And it’s hard. So it’s a different level. But it’s also challenging and find that as well.
Livesay: Yes. Well, when you can mitigate the risk of doing business with you or buying something or hiring you, then that’s that first gut level because it’s literally fight or flight is this even safe to do. And the more you that’s why, as a speaker, I have, you know, video compilations of me speaking in front of huge ballrooms full of people, so the event planner can look at that and go, Okay, that person has done this before, they’re not going to be a deer in headlights if they get up on stage. You know, now, that’s the first layer of Okay, now that that’s what allows me to get in the final two or three speakers that they’re considering is they’ve looked at my content and say, okay, you know, you can do the job. And the same thing is true as a small business owner, right? Like we’re looking at, you know, two or three, whatever it is lawyers, accountants, financial advisors. Once we feel like you’re qualified, now it becomes which one’s the right fit for us. And when you tell stories, or come up with a creative idea, for example, Anthem insurance, was interviewing me and I had asked one question that turned everything around. I said, what else is going to happen after I speak if I’m your opening speaker if you choose me, oh, at the end of the day, we’re going to have an improv session. And people are gonna shout out objections from the audience and we’ll be role playing on stage. I’m gonna say Oh, well, what if I stayed for that? And could whisper in somebody’s ear if they got stuck something from my talk? Wow, no one’s ever offered that it hadn’t even occurred to us to ask, that would be amazing. And then we’re suddenly in the intriguing level on the ladder. And that is what allowed me to get that job. And then at the event, people said, Could you be in my ear all the time. And when I’m in the field, and someone said, God, you’re like the pitch whisperer. And I told that story to Ink Magazine. And then they said, Oh, that’s where we’re gonna call you this article. You’re the pitch whisperer. So that became my brand. And now I’ve trademarked it. And so it’s fascinating. Having a hook like that, in a story to go behind it, again, keeps you from drowning in the sea of sameness against my case, all the other speakers.
John: And that’s amazing to hear that because it’s always value add, right? How can you stand apart from all the other clutter? Because everyone’s pitching using the same data sets? Right? What are you bringing to the table that’s different? How can you stand out? How can you make yourself elevate to their level to be at the top of their list? So I love hearing that. So tell us Tell me a little bit about this new book that you’re working on?
Livesay: Oh, thanks. Well, it’s called the sale is in the tail, T A L E. And it’s a business fable. So it takes place here in Austin, where I now live. And this is a hubbub of startups and small businesses, and a lot of tech companies and healthcare companies. And it’s following a character’s journey of wondering why his sales are in a slump, and figuring out and getting some tips from his co workers, that it’s not about pushing out facts and figures, but in fact, telling stories and you go on the journey, wondering Is he going to get fired, what’s going to happen, and the different people along the way, like any hero’s journey that helped him learn that storytelling, the soft skills that we talked about, really are the key and and I’m, you know, incorporating actual places, restaurants and coffee shops here to make it seem as real as possible. And I think it’s a really fun way to show someone to something versus just telling them. So it’s a story about storytelling, again, with the outcome of you’re going to learn some storytelling secrets that are going to make you not feel like you’re just lost in the sea of sameness.
John: That’s amazing. I look forward to reading that book from you. I did want to mention, like one of the things that actually stood out for me when I was doing advertising sales was the first 20 minutes was me just probing and asking open ended questions to understand where they’re at and listening intently on some of their interests, some of their anything that can connect from my life, journey, and not even the actual product and service, but connection of life stage, family, travel, weather, whatever it may be, that can build a commonality. And the more you do that, in sales, the more you do that in life, really relationships, community, it’s actually going to build these great habits and traits for you to prosper and also elevate your, your whole life experiences. Right. So I don’t know, have you done a lot of that during that journey of yours as well?
Livesay: Yes, well, now, with LinkedIn and social media, there’s all kinds of ways to find out things about people and the brand. And when I work with companies, I’ll say we know you’re trying to pitch to get this, let’s go look at their website, what is their culture? Like? Does that match anything on your culture? And you know, cuz a lot of people, they go, Listen, we’ve sent you the request for proposal, everything you need to know is on there, we’re not really open to you asking us 20 minutes worth of questions, we’re busy, we just want to hear the pitch. So you have to figure out ways to get that information and customize it. That’s why warm introductions, any kind of commonality, we both went to the school just starting those moments out. Recently, I was on television and my hometown in Chicago and wgn. And you can be sure that I researched the anchors that were going to be interviewing me and one went to my alma mater at University of Illinois. So in those few seconds before when you sit down and before they you know, you go on live TV I mentioned to her, Oh, we’re both from you know, we’re both alumni of university. Oh, great. In some little, it doesn’t have to be long drawn out, but and then I was you know, retweeting and commenting on their tweets before I appeared on the show. Love that story you did on XYZ. All of that customization is a way to build report fast, which more and more people are telling me they need to have some ways to do that.
John: That’s amazing to hear. So tell me so what happened? I know you’re now pivot To speaking. So how long have you been doing that? How is that going? And what got you started to now pursue this career?
Livesay:Well, while I was selling advertising for Conde Nast is about 15 years ago, I was starting my speaking career, I would say to let’s say Land Rover, and Jaguar was in Southern California at the time. And I’d say, you know, if you run your ads in this magazine, it’s an affluent audience, you’ll get awareness to the you know, put that car on their shortlist of cars to test drive. But then as the added value, the marketing that we would always provide, the magazine is going to buy copies of my book, and give it to all your salespeople. And then I’m going to give a talk on how to sell to the luxury market and not take rejection personally. So I started my speaking career 15 years ago, speaking to the advertisers, sales teams, so that the ad drives traffic to the dealership, and then my talk would help them close more sales. And then, so that is an ongoing process from there of giving a TEDx talk about embracing disruption, called be the lifeguard of your own life. I like to say that unlike in a hurricane, no one’s going to come rescue you when you get disrupted. And of course, we’ve all been disrupted with a pandemic and having to reinvent. So that’s the journey of, of having that background of speaking to advertise your sales teams is what really helped me become a professional speaker now.
John: Amazing. And how has this pandemic panned out for you? Because, obviously, speaking is now ago, but during that time, yep. How was it? And also moving forward? Now things are opening up again. Yeah. How are you doing with that?
Livesay: Well, I recently was able to do my first live event in 20 months, and that felt great. But there was a moment where there’s something called E cam, which is allows you to do special effects. So when I tell my lifeguard story of saving a little girl, when I was underwater, I’m able to, you know, pull the audience in there, like what’s happening is like a picture of me, for those of you listening underwater, or I can say, you know, we get nervous, you get butterflies in your stomach, the goal is not to get rid of the butterflies in your stomach, but to get them to fly in formation. And I can have a special effective butterflies flying across my screen. And the learning how to do that was a huge amount of time and money. But I knew I needed to do something to Wow, 300 or more people on a zoom call. So it wasn’t just another zoom call for them. So it’s constantly reinventing and setting yourself up to succeed and be different.
John: Yeah, and that’s great. Because just like in, in any career that you’re in, or if you’re a business owner, if you do not step up, there’s going to be competition, there’s going to be new people coming after your book of business, your clients, and how are you constantly reinventing adding value and uniqueness? Right? How are you providing more than anyone else? And I always talk about value, but it’s the truth, right? Like how do you what’s your unique selling proposition but also, how much more can Are you offering than anyone else? Because if that’s how you differentiate, then you’re going to keep staying on top as well as keep bringing in new clients. So I love hearing that, John. And thank you for sharing your book as well. So how can some of the listeners get in touch with you reach out to you if you are social? If you don’t mind sharing that?
Livesay: Know on Instagram, I’m the pitch whisperer. LinkedIn is my name John Livesey. And if anybody wants a free PDF for me on some storytelling tips, all you have to do is text the word pitch P-i-t-c-h 266866. And it’ll appear in your inbox.
John: Amazing, John. And I look forward to also mentioning your new book as well. So if you don’t mind mentioning the name, and I’ll put that in the show notes.
Livesay: Thank you. The sale is in the tail.
John: Amazing, John. So this has been a really good and fun conversation that we had. I look forward to staying in touch. I know you’re in Chicago.
Livesay: I know I’m from there. But I live in Austin now.
John: Austin, Texas. Okay. Great weather. I’m in Toronto. It’s a little bit on the British side right now. Yes, but we are your friendly neighbors. Well, thanks a lot, John.
Livesay: It was fun. John. Thank you.
